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Things that are really important for us are not easy. Like getting together with friends, allowing your kids to go play together without adult supervision. Like these are not easy. What's easy is to spend a lot of time on products whose designers make money when you spend a

lot of time on them.

Okay, Katherine, what do people get wrong about productivity? >> I think we get the whole concept of productivity wrong. To me, I think we tend to think that productivity has to do with money, that if you use time on something and you don't have a

quantifiable output, in many cases financial, then it's not worth it, that you weren't productive. And so when I think about it, I try to think of other ways that you can have a productive use of your time. For example, like if you're just hanging out with a friend

and you have a great conversation, why is that not considered productive? Right? And I'm curious about your thoughts in terms of gardening, what is productive, what's not productive? Like the root of productive is to lead forth producco if I make it super dorky and go

Latin right at the beginning of this conversation. But I also just get so tired of when there's the assumption that you need to have an output in or of any kind in order to have something be classified as productive. What do you

encourage people to garden for the sake of gardening with our society's obsession with productivity? I do think the way that most people garden certainly there are some productive gardeners who are interested in growing like the most humongous uh pumpkins that

have ever been grown. >> It's always pumpkins. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> But most of us do it as a way to get away from that culture of productivity as a break as a almost a form of self-care or even a practice like yoga and meditation. And so it's just it's a

healthy way to reconnect to the earth, to reconnect to ourselves, connect to all the other organisms that are around us, and allows people to survive and thrive in this overly productive world. I feel like your work is similar in that we're all sort of caught up in this

busyness that is hard to escape and it can be hard to remember that we >> need to have fun. Mhm. >> And so do you see your work as as spreading like anti-productivity?

what we think of the definition of productivity being but I do see fun as a respit from this obsession with productivity but I also see this conflict where people will start doing something for fun and then this need for productivity is so deeply ingrained

they'll turn it into a side hustle or like as a personal example playing music. Like I don't care about performing music for an audience. I just really love playing music, but it's very hard to get adults to just get together to play instead of saying, "Okay, what's

going to be the end product?" Like, "What's the goal? Are we going to produce something?" Even if it's something as, you know, not actually tangible, like a show. >> Do you have suggestions for how to do that? I mean, I can't imagine calling my friends and being like, "It's bingo

night or or something." But is that really as easy as it as it sounds? Well, I I don't think it's easy because I think we all are overscheduled and we have pretty deep issues when it comes to this like drive for quote productivity. >> And that is why it can be useful to

recognize that fun can help you with these other more serious goals that you may have in your life. But I do think it

if you start to think of fun as valuable then it becomes also easier to take the steps to make it happen. And I remember, for example, like when I gave a talk once, a young woman coming up to me after my talk and she was saying, "You know, I've had this taco Tuesday night

with my friends for years." And I knew I loved it, but I didn't really realize how valuable it was. I didn't really realize it was almost like a sacred ritual that I have with my friends because it's the time where we let down our guard and we actually connect with

each other and we really catch up. And it's kind of a silly concept, you know, taco Tuesdays, but actually it's one of my favorite moments of the whole week. And it's a break from all the pressure I put myself under and it's a time to connect with the people I care about.

>> So I think that it's not as hard as you can have these rituals that aren't that hard to establish that then take on this greater meaning. >> But I do think that given our cultural obsession with productivity and efficiency and all that like we do need

to step back and say I'm going to carve out time for this.

should incorporate to have a healthier and happier life? >> H I mean I think everybody everyone should grow tomatoes and milkweed. Everybody. Um >> tell me more. >> I think it is such a small gesture. Um

but it really can change people's lives. Uh growing tomatoes, you can't buy tomatoes as good as you can grow them. They're just absolutely amazing. And so you really grow them for yourself, for your family, for your friends. And growing milkweed is an offering and a

way to give back to the many organisms around you who are struggling really. And so I think that process right now when I look at humanity in general, it really does seem like people feel isolated and uh even sometimes alienated

from the natural world. And that sort of gesture, it's a very small gesture of providing a gift back to that natural world um can be just a very hopeful, very gentle even form of activism for people to uh help create the world that

they want to see for the future. It's really and then and then to be able to watch that, to be able to eat those tomatoes, to be able to see who visits those milkeed flowers is really just absolutely incredible. >> That's inspiring. >> Absolutely. There's this bumper sticker

that I see sometimes that says, "Planting a garden means believing in tomorrow." And it's so cheesy, but also very sweet and very true. There's this element of you're helping cultivate the future that you want to create for future generations. You're helping to

literally grow that future. And I think at a time where so many pe people are having trouble even imagining the future

I'm going to go out and do it myself. >> I'm curious about how you would encourage people to be happier and healthier. >> I think in many ways I love the gardening idea. I also think just prioritizing fun and that we often think that fun is frivolous or a waste of time

or we think it's irresponsible to prioritize fun in this crazy world that we're living in with so many serious problems. But if you are having fun then you're filling yourself up with energy. You become much more equipped to deal with hard things in your own life and

you also become a source of energy for other people >> and it gives you energy to do stuff to help the world at large. You know, if you're sitting on the couch just doom scrolling the news, like you actually can't even plant a garden. You're not

going to play that milkweed because all you're doing is filling your mind with really overwhelming information. And you can make an argument that it's important to stay informed, but at what point does just cross the line to being obsessed and putting stuff that you have no

control over into your head? So, I think making a conscious effort to create better boundaries with content like that and say, "What would fill me up, you know, what would light me up?" Because the more we nourish ourselves, the more we can give to others and also the more

we'll enjoy our own lives, which we're allowed to do. >> Do you differentiate between fun as this sort of distinct activity where you're going and doing a fun thing or do you

create fun in the actions that they're already having? I think that I would say both, but I always like to distinguish or point out that I think that fun is a feeling. It's not a particular activity. So my definition of fun is that it's the confluence of three different factors.

Playfulness, connection, and flow. And each of those is wonderful for us on their own, but when all three are together, it's this magical state of fun. And I think that you can create it in two ways. One is to actually figure out your fun magnets, I call them. So

figure out what the activities or the settings or the people the people are who are most likely to generate that feeling of fun for you and then carve out time in your busy schedule to prioritize those. Another way to approach it is to open yourself up to

more spontaneous opportunities for fun where you're like, what could I do to make myself feel a little more connected right now or a little more in flow or add a bit of playfulness or delight to the situation? And another thing I like about defining fun as playful connected

flow is what you're getting at, which is that if you have that definition in mind, you can bring a bit of that attitude to pre-existing situations. Even a work conversation, like even a Zoom call, you can still bring a little bit more levity or a little bit more

connection with people. So, I think it's kind of a combination of things, but I think we focus a bit too much on the idea that it is a specific activity because that's when you get into the whole you have to spend a lot of money to have fun instead of recognizing

so I was grateful to that man. >> How do you give up control? >> I think we need to recognize that ultimately we're not that important. We're part of this bigger ecosystem. >> Us trying to cling to control >> isn't really probably going to help

anyone, including ourselves. So, I think constantly reminding myself of that is really useful. Um, and also trying to get clearer as the cliche goes, but just be aware of what you do have control over and what you don't. And then I'd also say I do try in my life to find

situations in which I can just try to let go of control, you know, not in the sense of like getting trashed, but more like when can I emotionally just not be conscientious all the time? I'm conscientious all the time. >> Yeah. And so this is not exactly an

answer to that question, but I have noticed the times for me in which I have the most fun are the moments in which I'm letting go of control and I'm not organizing and I'm not responsible for

energizing. But how about you? >> I mean I I couldn't agree more. I feel like control can really be a burden. >> Yeah. Right. And that that it really starts with recognizing that and and the relief that can come when you do uh not when you give up control. I love to

spend a lot of time with old trees >> or just giant trees. >> I didn't know where I thought you were going with that, but it wasn't with old trees. Okay. >> It's always always going towards trees. Yeah. >> Um but there is a 400y old white oak in a cemetery in the Bronx. Really?

>> This tree is massive. is just humongous >> and it's really obvious when you visit this tree who the superior being is. It's like I always want to bring an offering or something like that and it >> is so relaxing. It is so just it's sort of like looking at a mountain or a

canyon or the sky >> to feel that smallalness and that insignificantness and it's yeah it's just a relief and I think that process of giving up control can really start

>> Yes, it feels really good. >> Yeah. All right. What does play mean to you? Oh, such a tough one. Um, I uh struggle. I struggle with this. I have to admit. I uh I have a 12-year-old and so I do a lot of like

child play, but when it comes to play for me, it's it's much more it's just so much more difficult to imagine what that actually looks like. I do do ceramics. I do gardening. I I do try to create in

loose and flow state realms, but I don't know that I would go towards the word play initially. And so I guess I would love some advice. I would love advice on how how to play as a sort of even I'm very like a whimsical but also neurotic person.

>> I am Yeah, I'm with you on that. I think it's really hard to define play and especially for adults. I think I would say it's doing things for the sake of doing them, >> doing enjoyable things for the sake of doing them without necessarily needing

the outcome to be a particular way. I found it useful to think about the the word playfulness as opposed to just play, which is somehow harder for me to pin down, but having a playful spirit and attitude towards things to me can make anything turn into a form of play.

So if you come at life with having kind of a light-hearted attitude or not taking too things too seriously or finding ways to laugh or you know finding ways or situations in which your inner critic can be silent that to me is what playfulness means and then you can

turn any situation into some type of play. But I also think it's interesting. I remember when I was researching play for my book, The Power of Fun. There was

and can't do. And having that structure actually lets people relax a little bit. >> Yeah. >> Um which I find interesting to think about. >> Yeah. It makes me think about roughousing. Watching these kids wrestle uh pretty aggressively sometimes worried

me initially. I was like, "Oh no, someone's going to get hurt." But then we went through this whole process of making sure that they had a word to say if it got too rough. And they were always checking in with each other and making sure that uh the other person

that they were wrestling with was really okay with the, you know, activity that was happening. And it's given them this freedom >> to have. so much more fun in this really wild way that they're inclined towards, right? >> And um in many realms of school and home

they had so much more freedom, >> right? And they would know if someone went too far. Like then it wouldn't be play, then it would be too rough. And like they kind of know that. >> Maybe play is also just doing things because they feel fun. One thing I

learned in my research for my book is that across the animal kingdom, scientists have observed play-like behavior and basically insects on up. Oh yeah. Which is kind of nuts. >> Bumblebees. Bumblebees are like so playful. >> There was a great study um where they

like had all these little bumblebees and these little wooden balls and they had this path towards sugar water and the bumblebees would, especially younger bumblebees, would go off to the side and just play with balls and then go to the path for no reason whatsoever. That's

think about them as pollinators, >> they are unusually smart and they like puzzles. >> There's generalist flowers. If you think of a sunflower, right? It's really open and the pollen and the nectar are really accessible. You could be a beetle, you

could be a butterfly, any any species can come and get those resources. other flowers like pea flowers or even something like a gentin or an orchid, you have to know how to solve a puzzle in order to get to the pollen and the nectar. >> And bumblebees are excellent at that.

They can they can literally unscrew a bottle. There's a a research study showing that bumblebees can figure that out. And so a lot of flowers have lockin key mechanisms and bumblebees are just they're curious and uh and yeah, they like to have fun.

And I wonder if those two elements I mean it must be an evolutionary advantage, >> right? Right. Yeah. No, I totally agree. I did not know that. I'm imagining little like escape rooms for bumblebees now. >> I think that's like a whole field of research.

>> You heard it here first. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> All right. In a world designed to make everything as easy as possible, why is friction an important thing to incorporate into your life? Well, I think I would push back on the

premise of that question, which is that I don't think everything's designed to be as easy as possible. And I know what the question is trying to ask, but I do want to push back on that because things that are really important for us are not easy. Like, yeah,

>> getting together with friends or like >> allowing your kids to go play together

of my bedroom. We'll see if that actually happens. >> Just get an alarm clock. >> Okay. All right. I do think that when I think about the world right now, it really seems hard. Like it seems like there's more friction than um than even 10 years ago. And I I think that there's

like even like getting on an airplane is getting harder and harder. And I feel like the way the economy is, there's going to be someone like you have to pay for all these little things. And at some point, I imagine they're going to be like, I'm going to just poke you in the

head until you pay me $20. and like they're just inventing things that don't need to be invented so that you have to pay to get rid of them essentially. So it seems like there's so many more steps and so much more friction >> that we have to deal with just to go

grocery shopping um that haven't been there in the past. So So yeah, I also would push back on the premise. It doesn't feel um easeful in life these days. >> Right. All right. Where should someone start if they want

to bring a little more wildness into their life? >> I mean, I I always think people should grow plants. Everyone Everyone should grow plants. If they live inside, you can grow house plants. They're so wonderful. If you have any access to the outside world, even a window sill or a

stoop, you can grow milkweed and golden rod. And it's wonderful to have an excuse to just sit and stare at a flower. >> And I think that process again, it's an offering, right? It's not so much about you as something that you are giving back to the other earthlings

really freeing uh for so many people. >> How about you? What do you think? >> How to bring wildness into your life. I think that rebelling a bit is what I would say to that when I talk to people about their past fun experiences because I was trying to search around for a

better definition for fun than what's in the dictionary because the dictionary just said it's light-hearted pleasure and amusement. But when I talked to people, there was this deep undercurrent of joy and this sense of connection to other people in a really emotionally

powerful way. The one thing that came up again and again was this kind of playful rebellion of kind of breaking the rules a bit. In my TED talk, I talk about breaking the rules of responsible adulthood. You know, giving yourself permission to enjoy your your own life.

And I don't think we do that enough. And so, I think you can introduce a bit of wildness by just doing something a little bit unconventional or something that quote breaks the rules, whether it's the rules you have for yourself or that society has placed on you as a

adult. So, it could be as simple as saying to yourself, you know what? Today, I am going to take a different path on my way home or I'm going to leave my phone behind and I'm going to look at the world around me and I'm going to notice the butterflies. Like

that's adding, well, in that case, a bit of literal wildness to your life. But I also love the idea of if you're someone who commutes, like don't listen to the news or some podcast to educate yourself. Maybe just listen to a song you really loved when you were 17 and

to bring out our aliveness and to connect with and respect other people and other creatures aliveness. >> Yeah. When I think that that connection to other creatures is really really central to a lot of the isolation and loneliness that people feel like we are

>> surrounded by song birds who are saying things to each other. Sometimes we can even understand those things. Like there's a bird outside of my house that when my dog comes outside always makes the same call and I know what that bird is saying. It's really exciting. And

when you start to recognize the trees and um the butterflies and the flowers as you walk around, it's literally like you have friends, you know? I'm always like, "Hey, hey, I know you." And when I see like a very rare flower, it's like meeting a celebrity. It's just like

amazing experience. And I I often wonder if much of the isolation that people experience is environmental isolation. Is that real break from the natural world and not knowing um all of these incredible creatures that are are

place with a lawn, take a little bit of that lawn away and plant those flowers there. >> Lawns are so fundamentally about control. They are literally a crew cut, right? It's a crew cut that is happening um to the earth over and over in perpetuity. And to just and they're

important. Lawns can be a very good habitat for people, right? They sort of tell people where they belong in a landscape. But it can also be freeing um and rewarding to just push back a little bit on that level of control and to make space for all of the other

organisms that are going to use that land aside from people. >> I love that as a concrete suggestion for how to let go of control. Let go of some of your lawn. >> Yeah, just a little corner. You can start really small. There's this whole punk rock movement right now of kill

your lawn and uh it's cool. I support it, but it's not mine. You know, I think that lawns are really important for people, right? They can sort of say in a landscape, especially a park, this is where you belong in a landscape. But it doesn't mean that those lawns need to be

>> the default of every single landscape. I think a lot of people have lawn because they don't know what else to do with land or they are scared that if they stop mowing, a jungle will grow and there will be snakes. That's a common common fear.

>> Really? Straight to the snakes. straight to snakes. >> But that also makes me think of like the lawn as a play space like what we were talking about before where a lawn, you know, if you ask people what would you do on a lawn, the first things that come